On 13 Aug 24 12:11:52 Nightfox wrote...

Re: Re: Computers By: Mhansel739 to MIKE POWELL on Tue Aug 13
2024 07:42 am

take the chance or lack the discipline to learn something
"different"? Or has Linux gotten a reputation for being "overly technical"?

I feel like Linux has always been fairly technical, but I think it
has gotten better in recent years with the various GUI window
managers and desktop environments. Depending on the Linux distro, I
think the user experience can be somewhat similar to Mac OS now,
where you can use GUI applications for many things, but also go to
the command line to do some tasks if you want to.

These days, my favorite Linux distro is Linux Mint. I've been using
it on a secondary PC (my BBS PC) since about 2015, and it has always
been fairly easy to maintain and update, and has been very stable.
Linux Mint is available in editions with Cinnamon, Xfce, and I think
one or two other GUI environments. I like the Cinnamon and Xfce environments; I've been using the one with Xfce on my BBS PC, and my
main PC is set up to dual-boot between Windows and Linux Mint with Cinnamon.

Nightfox --- SBBSecho 3.20-Linux * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

To which Bf2K+ replies...

I have just setup Linux Mint (Xfce) on one of my laptops to start playing
with it. I really like it so far. When I retire in the next couple of
years, I want to completely remove myself from Micro$oft systems and go elsewhere (if I can). Due to work requirements, I can't do it right now
but I am definitely thinking about it already...

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³ That is fair. But are we the execptions to the "rule" - as we are more
³ technical than others? I have a Linux distro on one of my laptops, but do
³ not use it. The majority of the things I do are MS based. I know you can
³ do almost everything with some alternate software on Linux.
³ Lost my train of thought. I suppose, is it that many of the consumers are
³ unwilling to take the chance or lack the discipline to learn something
³ "different"? Or has Linux gotten a reputation for being "overly
³ technical"?
ÀÄ[M=>MP]

That last bit could be. I think the main thing is that when they go to buy
a computer (and IF they ever do... a lot of individuals have moved to cell phones and pads now), Microsoft is very likely what is on it.

In order to find something with linux on it, they either have to look specifically for it or install it themselves.

I am not so certain it has as much to do with linux software being
different or even more technical as it does with linux being less likely to
be pre-installed.

Microsoft may no longer have the monopolistic deals with PC makers
regarding preinstallation of their software (or maybe they do?), but I
think the damage was long done before that was stopped.

Mike

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Re: Re: Computers
By: Bf2K+ to Nightfox on Wed Aug 14 2024 03:41 pm

I have just setup Linux Mint (Xfce) on one of my laptops to start playing with it. I really like it so far. When I retire in the next couple of years, I want to completely remove myself from Micro$oft systems and go elsewhere (if I can). Due to work requirements, I can't do it right now but I am definitely thinking about it already...

I've considered going entirely to Linux, and I probably could except for some software I liked to use which isn't available for Linux. A couple of those are photo & video editing tools (Topaz Labs Video AI and Topaz Gigapixel), and I do also like to play PC games sometimes.. There are some PC games I like which aren't available for Linux, such as Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020, though it looks like there is an increasing number of PC games that have Linux native versions available, and Windows versions that might run in Linux with Proton or Wine.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: Computers
By: Mhansel739 to MIKE POWELL on Tue Aug 13 2024 07:42 am

That is fair. But are we the execptions to the "rule" - as we are more technical than others? I have a Linux distro on one of my laptops, but do not use it. The majority of the things I do are MS based. I know you can
do almost everything with some alternate software on Linux.
Lost my train of thought. I suppose, is it that many of the consumers are unwilling to take the chance or lack the discipline to learn something "different"? Or has Linux gotten a reputation for being "overly
technical"?
--Matt

I think the public does not know what Linux is at all. It does not have really a reputation.

Desktop Linux does great in two scenarios. The first one is when you set it up for some IT illiterate who knows nothing about computers and only wants to watch foal videos online. This is the sort of person who would buy an old Windows computer and ask the store guy to set office for her. Usually you can set Linux for these people and they won't notice the difference since they never attempt any administrative task on their own, regardless of OS.

The second one is when power users set it up for themselves. Power users will do lots of horrible things to their computer trying to achieve weird results, but since they are the sort who loves reading documentation and fixing and tweaking things, the fact an OS can get more technical than others is a non-issue. In fact, it is a bonus.

Heck, my videogaming group uses an old Linux graming rig. The owner squarely falls in the power user category. He hates Linux (because he hates everything and everybody, actually) but when asked why doesn't he migrate, he answers "This crap allows me to run modern stuff without buying new hardware."

The people who really get burned by Linux are the ones in the middle of the road: people who manages "ok" with computers but can't bother doing their own research for solving problems. This is the sort of people who expects to be able to administrate their own computers but don't want to put any work on it. They will run into an issue sooner or later, do a quick web search for it, realize the issue involves a terminal emulator, and switch back to Windows.


--
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I am not so certain it has as much to do with linux software being different or even more technical as it does with linux being less likel
be pre-installed.

Microsoft may no longer have the monopolistic deals with PC makers regarding preinstallation of their software (or maybe they do?), but I think the damage was long done before that was stopped.

Mike, I think that you hit the nail on the head. When you go to a store
(or Amazon for that matter), the computers that you find to buy all have Windows installed or are MacOS. Those are the 2 most likely choices a
user has. And their purchase is based on a need - a need to get a
computer that is working right now, and taking the time to install a new
OS is not a top priority.

Yes, the damage has been done. The end users are going to buy what they
buy and use it as is (aside from maybe adding some additional software).
They want easy and convenient.
--Matt

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Re: Re: Computers
By: Mhansel739 to MIKE POWELL on Thu Aug 15 2024 06:59 am

Microsoft may no longer have the monopolistic deals with PC makers
regarding preinstallation of their software (or maybe they do?), but I
think the damage was long done before that was stopped.

Mike, I think that you hit the nail on the head. When you go to a store (or Amazon for that matter), the computers that you find to buy all have Windows installed or are MacOS. Those are the 2 most likely choices a user has. And their purchase is based on a need - a need to get a computer that is working right now, and taking the time to install a new OS is not a top priority.

Yes, the damage has been done. The end users are going to buy what they buy and use it as is (aside from maybe adding some additional software). They want easy and convenient.

These days, I think another factor is that there are a lot of people using tablets and smartphones for a lot of tasks, and retailers selling computers might just be putting less effort into the desktop/laptop computers they sell, because those aren't selling as much as they did years ago.

Nightfox
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Re: Re: Computers
By: StormTrooper to Mhansel739 on Fri Aug 16 2024 03:09 pm

The other thing is, for better or worse Windoze remains the lowest common denominator, so its more than likely going to do what some 95% of consumers are going to ask of it, and they won't look any further.

In the 90s, I was hopeful that OS/2 might somehow overtake Windows, but I think there was a certain point in the early-mid 90s that once Windows became common enough, it already had enough momentum to make it domiant enough that other operating systems would have a hard time gaining traction.

Later, I tried BeOS and I really liked it, but it was the late 90s when BeOS was ported to PCs, and I think it was already too late by then. I thought BeOS was really user-friendly, looked nice, and worked well though.. It would have been cool to see BeOS as a standard desktop OS.
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Mike, I think that you hit the nail on the head. When you go to a store (or Amazon for that matter), the computers that you find to buy all have Windows installed or are MacOS. Those are the 2 most likely choices a
user has. And their purchase is based on a need - a need to get a
computer that is working right now, and taking the time to install a new OS is not a top priority.

There are some locals that will flog you a new system with some distro linux on it, although they tend to be few and far between. The other thing MicroSloth and Apple have going for them is consistency... you can pretty much be certain what works now, will work in the next version... Not sure if its still the case, but it used to feel like reinventing the wheel every time you got a new linux install.. with whatever desktop manager was the flavour of the month.

The other thing is, for better or worse Windoze remains the lowest common denominator, so its more than likely going to do what some 95% of consumers are going to ask of it, and they won't look any further.

ST

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These days, I think another factor is that there are a lot of people us tablets and smartphones for a lot of tasks, and retailers selling compu might just be putting less effort into the desktop/laptop computers the sell, because those aren't selling as much as they did years ago.

Nightfox

That is a good point. I know my dad has moved strictly to an iPad and
iPhone for his use of computing technology. My step-mom got a
hand-me-down laptop from me (with Windows 11), but she is still
"committed" to using a "computer". My wife only uses her computer (a
MacBook) to do homework on, or her work laptop for work-related things.
Yes, most definitely people are moving away from the use of a "real
computer", reducing the efforts put into them by manufacturers. And the
way some of the tablets are going, the lines are being blurred between a laptop/notebook and a tablet. Hell, my Kindle Fire 11 Max has a keyboard
and stylus that can be added to it.
--Matt

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³There are some locals that will flog you a new system with some distro linux on
³it, although they tend to be few and far between. The other thing MicroSloth ³and Apple have going for them is consistency... you can pretty much be certain ³what works now, will work in the next version... Not sure if its still the ³case, but it used to feel like reinventing the wheel every time you got a new ³linux install.. with whatever desktop manager was the flavour of the month. ÀÄ[S=>M]

Most distros (at least the debian based ones I have tried) have become pretty good at picking a default desktop manager and sticking to it.

Most of the applications tend to remain intact. If you do a fresh install, there are still times where some may disappear. I like using the medit
text editor on my desktop, but it went out of support a debian version or
two ago. I still have it on a box that was upgraded but it is missing by default on any fresh install.

I can remember having to change most of my "favorite applications" every time
I upgraded, so being down to one that disappeared over the last two
upgrades is an improvement.

³The other thing is, for better or worse Windoze remains the lowest common ³denominator, so its more than likely going to do what some 95% of consumers are
³going to ask of it, and they won't look any further.
ÀÄ[S=>M]

Yes, it is likely what they are using at work, for one.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61á. !link S 8-16-24 15:09
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I don't know why but, in comparison to today's internet and social
media, I feel now that we are a lot less likely to be exposed to rampant misinformation back then.

i agree! :D

--mary4 (Victoria Crenshaw) the 286 enthusiast

... DOS=HIGH? I knew it was on something...

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SQZ, SqueezeIt gave exactly the same file size as ARJ a -jm but I just used it to be contrary and had all the BBS archives converted to it :)
It was never popular anywhere else in my memory...

Interesting. I did not know that one.

I had ZIP,RAR, LHA (thanks to Amigans), ARC (Atari), ARJ, ACE was the best one in my case when I was often comparing compression ratios. Also not that popular in the later years. ZIP was conquered by RAR thanks to its easy interface to create 1.44 partial archives to bundle something bigger and distribute via floppies.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

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Nightfox wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

I don't know why but, in comparison to today's internet and social media, I feel now that we are a lot less likely to be exposed to rampant misinformation back then.

I've heard people say that misinformation has multiplied as more and
more people have gotten internet access. Even though many people have access to factual information online, it's also very easy for people to spread misinformation to a lot of people online.

Heard this the other day - was meant as a joke, but it's so very
true too... "The very parents who told us not to believe everything
we heard on television now believe everything they read on Facebook."


... Oklahoma: Our Tornadoes Go To F6!!
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MIKE POWELL wrote to NIGHTFOX <=-

I feel like that has to do with people gravitating to social media
sites, especially those that echo their own beliefs, for social interaction that they don't get on news sites.

People like echo chambers... I like to talk to like minded people
too, but we never learn or grow if we aren't challenged.




... No Purchase Required. Details in package.
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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to StormTrooper <=-

I know I've told this story before, but I worked in a company with a mixture of Mac and Windows PCs back in the '90s. We used a LAN-based
email system called Quickmail and needed 3 or 4 servers to support 70 clients.

The school I work at - when I started they were using QuickMail.
They didn't have 'internet mail' unless it was manually turned
on by the guy I replaced. I quickly changed that, and migrated
over to the official state hosted emails supplied by our ISP.


... The insurace guy to Adam & Eve: I see you're not covered.
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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Utopian Galt <=-

Utopian Galt wrote to Bob Worm <=-

Yeah, amatuer radio has more of a potential to grow than bbsing.

I'm surprised CB radio isn't hanging on more with the truckers. I took
a long trip up I-80 and was expecting to see CB antennas on trucks like
I did when I was a kid - only the odd truck had a visible CB antenna.

It seems like such a great way to pass time with whoever's around you
when you're on the road - especially when trying to get traffic and
road conditions.

I've been known to talk on 146.52 while traveling, and even once
when I was looking for why the traffic wasn't moving. Got the info,
make a quick U-Turn and took a detour...

Have thought of getting a little CB rig for travel, but figure not
worth it in the long run... Would rather try to chat on the
dead repeaters along the way. ;-) Every now and again it
works. :-)


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Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I'm surprised CB radio isn't hanging on more with the truckers. I took a long trip up I-80 and was expecting to see CB antennas on trucks like I did when I was a kid - only the odd truck had a visible CB antenna.

It seems like such a great way to pass time with whoever's around you when you're on the road - especially when trying to get traffic and road conditions.

Maybe truckers have other things now with smartphones. I wonder if there's a smartphone app that provides something similar to CB radio,
with different voice chat channels on some central server(s).. Also, I imagine there are smartphone apps that could provide voice-controlled games you could play (trivia games, Q&A guessing games, etc.).

Good points... And with GPS's re-routing you around bad traffic
conditions, even that is less of an urgent need. :-)

Add on hands free calling and you just talk to your heart's content
with people you already know.

Of course you don't meet new people, but still... :-)



... To boldly go where no sane man has any business...
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tenser wrote to Bob Worm <=-

Hear, hear. Also, the emphasis on HF as the end-all, be-all
of the hobby. "Why aren't people upgrading?!" When I suggest
that people ask new hams why they don't upgrade, they just
look at me funny. It's like a completely foreign concept to
them or something.

HF is good, yes, but it could be the death knoll of local
repeaters. I have a friend that FINALLY got her ticket and
the people in her area - in the clubs I mean - don't talk
on the repeaters because they are busy with HF. :-) But
they don't talk to the new ones who don't know anything
about HF, and think the bands are just dead.

I don't know what the solution is... :-) I just like
to talk. LOL



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Bob Worm wrote to tenser <=-

Given that, I'm not about to throw a couple of grand at a radio, tuner, test kit, etc. just to see if I get on with it - especially since a lot
of HF work just seems to be hello, swap call sign / location / signal strength, maybe kit list, then goodbye. Everyone is entitled to enjoy radio in their own way but that's not my kind of fun.

I have my general, but I'm in the same boat as you (hey - scoot
over! hihi). I don't do contesting because I like to CONVERSE. :-)


... ACRONYM: Abbreviated Coded Rendition Of Name Yielding Meaning
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halian wrote to Bob Worm <=-

This is the boat I'm in. I think ham radio is pretty neat, and got the Amateur Radio badge when I was in the Boy Scouts, but I don't have the money or brain space to actually get into amateur radio.

Can't help with the brain space, but IF there are active repeaters
in your area, and you're fairly close, you can get a radio for
less than $30 US that will get you on and talking!



... DOS never says "EXCELLENT command or filename"
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JIMMY ANDERSON (21:2/127) wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

People like echo chambers... I like to talk to like minded people
too, but we never learn or grow if we aren't challenged.

I try my best not to push people away, but still try to be authentic without censoring myself too much.

... ... A little rebellion now & then is necessary medicine for a healthy
ummin
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³ MP> I feel like that has to do with people gravitating to social media
³ MP> sites, especially those that echo their own beliefs, for social
³ MP> interaction that they don't get on news sites.
³
³ People like echo chambers... I like to talk to like minded people
³ too, but we never learn or grow if we aren't challenged.
ÀÄ[JA=>MP]

Very true, very true!

Mike

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³ Remember bloatware? You'd buy that $300 Packard Bell or HP machine,
³ and it woud be preinstalled with a TON of stuff that you had to
³ delete to get system space and processing back. I found out that
³ the companies PAID to have their stuff installed, and that's how
³ they could sell the PC's so cheaply.
ÀÄ[JA=>M]

That is one way MS Windows got to be so popular. Most PC makers pretty
much had to include it on their machines.

Mike

##Mmr 2.61á. !link JA 5-03-25 23:54
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Re: Re: Computers
By: MIKE POWELL to JIMMY ANDERSON on Sun May 04 2025 08:44 am

That is one way MS Windows got to be so popular. Most PC makers pretty much had to include it on their machines.

I heard that Microsoft would charge PC makers a Windows license for each PC they sold, even if they installed a different OS on a PC. Seems a bit sketchy to me.. But I've heard some people say that was volume licensing, which may be a somewhat different thing.

Nightfox
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Utopian Galt wrote to Jimmy Anderson <=-

JIMMY ANDERSON (21:2/127) wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

People like echo chambers... I like to talk to like minded people
too, but we never learn or grow if we aren't challenged.

I try my best not to push people away, but still try to be authentic without censoring myself too much.

Agreed. Tell the truth always, but do it diplomatically. :-)



... It's only a hobby ... only a hobby ... only a
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MIKE POWELL wrote to JIMMY ANDERSON <=-

| Remember bloatware? You'd buy that $300 Packard Bell or HP machine,
| and it woud be preinstalled with a TON of stuff that you had to
| delete to get system space and processing back. I found out that
| the companies PAID to have their stuff installed, and that's how
| they could sell the PC's so cheaply.

`-[JA=>M]

That is one way MS Windows got to be so popular. Most PC makers pretty much had to include it on their machines.

Or else they could't be competitive with their prices. Yep.


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I've heard people say that misinformation has multiplied as more and more people have gotten internet access. Even though many people have

It just makes sense that the more information you have, the more
likely a lot of it will be misinformation. We are exposed to
so much info now, there is a lot of misinformation. It just goes
along with the good information.

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Jimmy Anderson wrote to MIKE POWELL <=-

That is one way MS Windows got to be so popular. Most PC makers pretty much had to include it on their machines.

Or else they could't be competitive with their prices. Yep.

The legal rationale was that people were going to pirate Windows anyway,
so punish the computer manufacturers - even if they were going to use
OS/2 or Linux or whatever.

Then, Windows got so big that they required makers to purchase a license
per system or they wouldn't sell you any license at all.

Let's not forget people who went through the hoops of trying to get a
refund on a shrinkwrap license of Windows when they installed another
OS.

It was the same rationale that the RIAA used to get the courts to order
makers of blank CDs to pay into a fund for the recording industry
because users could possibly use blank CDs to copy music (which was
legal under copyright, but details...)

Whether or not the artists harmed by piracy ever saw any of those funds
remains to be seen, of course.





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Alonzo wrote to Jimmy Anderson <=-

I've heard people say that misinformation has multiplied as more and more people have gotten internet access. Even though many people

have

It just makes sense that the more information you have, the more
likely a lot of it will be misinformation. We are exposed to
so much info now, there is a lot of misinformation. It just goes
along with the good information.

Or to put it another way, the percentage may be the same, but when the
total number goes WAY up, so does the number of 'mis.' :-)


... Do mimes listen to blank tapes?
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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Jimmy Anderson <=-

Then, Windows got so big that they required makers to purchase a
license per system or they wouldn't sell you any license at all.

Let's not forget people who went through the hoops of trying to get a refund on a shrinkwrap license of Windows when they installed another
OS.

It was the same rationale that the RIAA used to get the courts to order makers of blank CDs to pay into a fund for the recording industry
because users could possibly use blank CDs to copy music (which was
legal under copyright, but details...)

Ah - the old 'but you COULD do it, so let's make sure you pay for it
anyway' rationale...

Reminds me of the John Boy & Billy Playhouse where the lady was in the
boat and the game warden said he was going to give her a ticket for
fishing without a license. "But I'm not fishing - I'm just here to
relax."

His reply was that she had the equipment and the opportunity, so how did
he know she wasn't going to start? She said that was fine - but she wanted
to file a report of sexual harrasment. When he said he didn't do that at
all, she said, "but you have the equipment and the opportunity. How do
I know you're not going to start?"


... Almost had a psychic girlfriend - she left me before we met.
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That is one way MS Windows got to be so popular. Most PC makers pretty much had to include it on their machines.

I heard that Microsoft would charge PC makers a Windows license for each PC they sold, even if they installed a different OS on a PC. Seems a bit sketchy
to me.. But I've heard some people say that was volume licensing, which may b
a somewhat different thing.

That is what I also heard. I am pretty sure it was correct but, like you, I
am not sure if that was by volume or per individual PC.

I also always thought it sketchy but, if it was by volume, maybe less so.
I ordered a PC in 1991 and asked for it to be shipped without Windows 3.1.
The cost was the same. ;)

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þ SLMR 2.1a þ "Wanna give Honest Abe another term in the Oval Office?"
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