• Re: Hi all!

    From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to tenser on Fri Sep 5 09:12:23 2025
    tenser wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-


    My clicky FOCUS 2001 keyboard - I miss that to this day!

    Hey! I had one of those; loved that thing!

    I think it was Northgate that made a similar keyboard. Clicky, but with
    a light feel. I think it helped that I was single when I had it - with
    my office adjacent open to my living room, I tried bringing out my
    trusty IBM model M keyboard and was quickly vetoed.

    I'm typing on a Logitech MX Master now, miss the klicky bits.



    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From opicron@21:3/126 to scarface on Sat Sep 6 08:55:23 2025
    Hi there. I'm scarface from New Zealand. I'm pretty new to BBS's, mainly j been playing the games (poorly haha). I've also been lurking the message b

    Welcome to the scene! ^^

    oP!

    ... We're all bozos on this bus.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: TheForze - bbs.theforze.eu:23 (21:3/126)
  • From hyjinx@21:1/126 to scarface on Sun Sep 7 21:29:00 2025
    Hi Scarface!

    Hi there. I'm scarface from New Zealand. I'm pretty new to BBS's, mainly j

    Hi from Wellington :)

    I'm a child of the late 80's, brought up with a mix of DOS, Debian, and va window's starting from 3.11. I've gotten to know a lot more about computer ever since, but always know there is heaps more out there to learn.

    My background is similar, although I'm more early 80s. DOS 3.2, Windows 3.1, Win 9x then RedHat 6/7/8/9, then Debian at Uni, then ubuntu and then allsorts after that.
    In recent years, I mainly use linux, but dabble in other OS's in VM's. I'v also made a decent effort at my own OS for the x86, purely for the learnin opportunity of learning x86 assembly.

    Very cool that you got into assembly. I always found x86 a massive PITA to be honest, just couldn't get the hang of doing everything in reverse. Coding in x86 real mode as well... urghh. How did you find it? What tools did you use, and what books/resources did you use (i.e. did it make learning it any easier?)

    Anyhow, that's me. Using SyncTERM from ubuntu. Happy for recommendations o other clients to enjoy this though!

    SyncTerm is great. NetRunner is probably the only other one that comes close, but SyncTerm is mostly what people these days use.

    Welcome to FSXNET!

    Cheers,
    Al :: bbs.alsgeeklab.com (port 2323) // https://youtube.com/AlsGeekLab


    hyjinx // Alistair Ross
    Author of 'Back to the BBS' Documentary: https://bit.ly/3tRINeL (YouTube) alsgeeklab.com

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: bbs.alsgeeklab.com:2323 (21:1/126)
  • From hyjinx@21:1/126 to Nightfox on Sun Sep 7 21:35:30 2025
    From what I remember, it wasn't common practice for CPUs until Intel start their Core i3/i5/i7 line (in 2009, I think?) and they started making new versions every year. I remember with the 286, 386, etc., it was maybe 3-4 years between new generations of a CPU, and in the meantime, you'd mainly see faster versions (higher megahertz) and different variants sometimes, s as SX and DX, etc..

    Yeah I think you're right.
    8088 was the OG IBM PC CPU and that was a subset of the 1979-based 8086.
    I have a feeling that the 80186 was fairly early too, but that never saw much use. The 80286 was 1982 IIRC. The 80386 was 1985. The 80486 was 1989. Pentium was 1993, P2 1997, P3 1999, and then it started to change. This is around the time when I started to lose interest in PC hardware. The P4 came out only a year later in 2000, and the chips kept on coming out after then. The Core2 Duo, then the Core i3/i5/i7/i9 stuff is still with us now, just they have different 'bumps' in numbering model. Yawn.


    hyjinx // Alistair Ross
    Author of 'Back to the BBS' Documentary: https://bit.ly/3tRINeL (YouTube) alsgeeklab.com

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: bbs.alsgeeklab.com:2323 (21:1/126)
  • From hyjinx@21:1/126 to Gamgee on Sun Sep 7 21:39:29 2025
    Digital Man wrote to Nightfox <=-
    And don't forget -

    3. Swapping out the UART chips on the MB (or expansion serial card) to use the high-speed 16550 UARTs, to properly use 19200/33600,56K modem speeds.

    Interesting, I never did that. I replaced the controllers themselves, the machines I worked on were so vintage that they didn't have UART on the motherboard, they were in controller ISA cards!

    4. On my first PC (a Kaypro PC), I upgraded the 8088 CPU to a VIC-20
    and it was a noticeable speed increase.

    I think you mean V20 :) A VIC-20 is quite a different thing!

    6. Massive, complicated batch files to run a mailer and BBS package for FidoNet. For me it was FrontDoor (and later Intermail) and PCBoard. LOTS of errorlevels and branches for mail/callers/doors/maintenance. I still have my masterpiece batch file that made it all work together.

    Ahhhhh - the good old days!! :-)

    I was just about to say the same!

    (I am writing this on an IBM 5160 XT though!)


    hyjinx // Alistair Ross
    Author of 'Back to the BBS' Documentary: https://bit.ly/3tRINeL (YouTube) alsgeeklab.com

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: bbs.alsgeeklab.com:2323 (21:1/126)
  • From Gamgee@21:2/138 to hyjinx on Sun Sep 7 08:38:59 2025
    hyjinx wrote to Gamgee <=-

    4. On my first PC (a Kaypro PC), I upgraded the 8088 CPU to a VIC-20
    and it was a noticeable speed increase.

    I think you mean V20 :) A VIC-20 is quite a different thing!

    Yes... LOL, a serious brain lapse there.

    6. Massive, complicated batch files to run a mailer and BBS package for FidoNet. For me it was FrontDoor (and later Intermail) and PCBoard.
    LOTS of errorlevels and branches for mail/callers/doors/maintenance. I still have my masterpiece batch file that made it all work together.

    Ahhhhh - the good old days!! :-)

    I was just about to say the same!

    (I am writing this on an IBM 5160 XT though!)

    Very cool!



    ... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.29-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to hyjinx on Sun Sep 7 08:24:02 2025
    Re: Re: Hi all!
    By: hyjinx to Nightfox on Sun Sep 07 2025 09:35 pm

    8088 was the OG IBM PC CPU and that was a subset of the 1979-based 8086. I have a feeling that the 80186 was fairly early too, but that never saw much use. The 80286 was 1982 IIRC. The 80386 was 1985. The 80486 was 1989. Pentium was 1993, P2 1997, P3 1999, and then it started to change. This is around the time when I started to lose interest in PC hardware.

    When you say you lost interest in PC hardware, did you switch to Mac? And around 2006 or so, Apple started using Intel processors for the Mac, so it was basically using PC hardware too..

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.29-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From scarface@21:1/101 to hyjinx on Mon Sep 8 08:09:09 2025
    Hi there. I'm scarface from New Zealand. I'm pretty new to BBS's, mai

    Hi from Wellington :)

    heh, I should have read all the mail before replying :facepalm:

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From scarface@21:1/101 to hyjinx on Mon Sep 8 08:35:37 2025
    Very cool that you got into assembly. I always found x86 a massive PITA
    to be honest, just couldn't get the hang of doing everything in reverse. Coding in x86 real mode as well... urghh. How did you find it? What
    tools did you use, and what books/resources did you use (i.e. did it
    make learning it any easier?)

    gah, timed out and lost my reply haha. anyhow!

    so i used fasm (https://flatassembler.net/) which has decent docs. for osdev stuff i used osdev wiki (https://wiki.osdev.org) and many other random search results.

    tools wise i set up gdb to work remotely early on. used qemu for quick turnaround, but also tested on physical hardware every once in a while. I also developed a small static analyser to (a) try out rust on something bigger, and (b) make sure that my data/code was as expected. it just checked whether stack size was consistent at each branch point/convergence point, and that the registers were "allocated", and maybe some rudimentary type checking (int/str) on regs? i can't recall sorry. anyhow it is a very reduced subset of x86, only the instructions i use. any new instructions i will likely have top of mind as i only just added them to code!

    before starting I had been doing advent of code in a forth-like language, which is stack based, which kinda helped jog some memories of assembly from uni times. Made me want to learn x86 more (I had some knowledge from a job as pentester), but would like more understanding. Also more understanding of the computer I run and have run for many years. diff computers same chip i guess.

    My advice, just start something you think is "big enough". If it is too small you'll work it out quickly. If it is "too big", then just break it down into parts and pick up the thing you find most interesting looking in that set that you think is "big enough". rinse repeat. works well with a lot of lifes problems

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Digital Man@21:1/183 to hyjinx on Sun Sep 7 17:35:48 2025
    Re: Hi all!
    By: hyjinx to scarface on Sun Sep 07 2025 09:29 pm

    SyncTerm is great. NetRunner is probably the only other one that comes close, but SyncTerm is mostly what people these days use.

    For Apple devices, MuffinTerm very nice too.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Breaking Bad quote #49:
    So you do have a plan? Yeah, Mr. White! Yeah, Science! - Jesse Pinkman
    Norco, CA WX: 91.1øF, 19.0% humidity, 8 mph WNW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.29-Linux
    * Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Sep 10 06:38:49 2025
    On 05 Sep 2025 at 09:12a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    tenser wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-


    My clicky FOCUS 2001 keyboard - I miss that to this day!

    Hey! I had one of those; loved that thing!

    I think it was Northgate that made a similar keyboard. Clicky, but with
    a light feel. I think it helped that I was single when I had it - with
    my office adjacent open to my living room, I tried bringing out my
    trusty IBM model M keyboard and was quickly vetoed.

    I'm typing on a Logitech MX Master now, miss the klicky bits.

    I realized after I wrote that I actually had the FOCUS 2000 PLUS.

    Nowadays, I've got a Kinesis Advantage 360 Pro, which is slightly
    clicky but not as clicky.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From hyjinx@21:1/126 to Nightfox on Thu Sep 11 21:01:59 2025
    Re: Re: Hi all!
    By: hyjinx to Nightfox on Sun Sep 07 2025 09:35 pm
    Pentium was 1993, P2 1997, P3 1999, and then it started to change. Th around the time when I started to lose interest in PC hardware.

    When you say you lost interest in PC hardware, did you switch to Mac? And around 2006 or so, Apple started using Intel processors for the Mac, so it basically using PC hardware too..

    Nah, I didn't switch to mac then, I just started losing interest in hardware, building PCs etc, everything was very 'same same'. Big beige boxes that didn't really innovate so much, they just iterated.

    My first real mac I bought in like 2015 I think. Macbook Pro. Have mainly used macs since, although always some form of x86 something lying around, as well as rpis.

    When computers started to become more about tools rather than objects of fun and tinkering. That's probably when I lost interest in the hardware.


    hyjinx // Alistair Ross
    Author of 'Back to the BBS' Documentary: https://bit.ly/3tRINeL (YouTube) alsgeeklab.com

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: bbs.alsgeeklab.com:2323 (21:1/126)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to hyjinx on Thu Sep 11 09:17:14 2025
    Re: Re: Hi all!
    By: hyjinx to Nightfox on Thu Sep 11 2025 09:01 pm

    When computers started to become more about tools rather than objects of fun and tinkering. That's probably when I lost interest in the hardware.

    When was that? I feel like they're often still for fun and tinkering. I feel like they've been both for fun and tools for a long time.. You can still build your own desktop PC if you want to, and these days, there are also DIY projects you can make with a Raspberry Pi board & similar things - There are a lot of fun projects you can work on. And there are still good games for computers.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.29-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From hyjinx@21:1/126 to Nightfox on Fri Sep 19 19:51:00 2025
    By: hyjinx to Nightfox on Thu Sep 11 2025 09:01 pm

    When computers started to become more about tools rather than objects fun and tinkering. That's probably when I lost interest in the hardwa

    When was that? I feel like they're often still for fun and tinkering. I like they've been both for fun and tools for a long time.. You can still your own desktop PC if you want to, and these days, there are also DIY pro you can make with a Raspberry Pi board & similar things - There are a lot fun projects you can work on. And there are still good games for computer


    Normal consumer computing (so, I wouldn't consider the RaspberryPI part of that) was fun and interesting. Every other month, you were wondering what new amazing tech was coming along - new graphics like the advances from 4 colours to 16, to 256, to millions, new CPUs which were significant marks better than the ones before. Exciting new operating systems that did things that no others did before it in some way or another. Untold amounts of tinkering, just for tinkerings sake.

    Now Windows has been amounted to a big pile of advertising, CPUs are all pretty much meh, all the same, Graphics cards, whilst insane, are all just doing the same thing, just faster, PCs encouraged tinkering and upgrading, different computer types still existed on the market - Acorn Archimedes, Macintosh PPC/64k, Atari ST, Amiga and the 8 bits before them. Linux has been turned into a big lot of boring blah - enterprise kubernetes containerised IoT function deployers.

    Yawn.`


    hyjinx // Alistair Ross
    Author of 'Back to the BBS' Documentary: https://bit.ly/3tRINeL (YouTube) alsgeeklab.com

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: bbs.alsgeeklab.com:2323 (21:1/126)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to hyjinx on Fri Sep 19 09:19:16 2025
    Re: Re: Hi all!
    By: hyjinx to Nightfox on Fri Sep 19 2025 07:51 pm

    Normal consumer computing (so, I wouldn't consider the RaspberryPI part of that) was fun and interesting. Every other month, you were wondering what new amazing tech was coming along - new graphics like the advances from 4 colours to 16, to 256, to millions, new CPUs which were significant marks better than the ones before. Exciting new operating systems that did things that no others did before it in some way or another. Untold amounts of tinkering, just for tinkerings sake.

    Now Windows has been amounted to a big pile of advertising, CPUs are all pretty much meh, all the same, Graphics cards, whilst insane, are all just doing the same thing, just faster, PCs encouraged tinkering and upgrading, different computer types still existed on the market - Acorn Archimedes, Macintosh PPC/64k, Atari ST, Amiga and the 8 bits before them. Linux has been turned into a big lot of boring blah - enterprise kubernetes containerised IoT function deployers.

    I know what you mean, and I agree. I've often thought about that too - In the early 90s, and through the 90s as well, computer hardware and software still had a new and exciting feel to it, and it was fun to see the new stuff coming out. Upgrades were more significant because they provided such an improvement over the previous stuff. But these days, it feels like upgrades aren't as significant.

    Recently though, I've actually still felt a bit of that with newer graphics cards sometimes - I think the most significant is Nvidia's RTX cards with their ray tracing, which I think looks pretty cool. There have been some PC games that have been re-released to support RTX ray tracing, including Quake 2. I thought it was particularly fun to try Quake 2 RTX. I played Quake 2 when it was new back in the day, and I was impressed back then seeing its graphics on the Voodoo2 card I had; similarly, I thought it was cool seeing Quake 2 with RTX capabilities.

    Otherwise though, yeah, it feels like a lot of computer upgrades are doing the same things but faster these days.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.29-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to hyjinx on Sat Sep 20 12:31:47 2025
    hyjinx wrote to Nightfox <=-

    Now Windows has been amounted to a big pile of advertising, CPUs are
    all pretty much meh, all the same, Graphics cards, whilst insane, are
    all just doing the same thing, just faster, PCs encouraged tinkering
    and upgrading, different computer types still existed on the market - Acorn Archimedes, Macintosh PPC/64k, Atari ST, Amiga and the 8 bits
    before them. Linux has been turned into a big lot of boring blah - enterprise kubernetes containerised IoT function deployers.


    I miss the days of Audacious Hardware Design. Give me a MIPS-powered
    Silicon Graphics box in some fever-dream color, Pee-Wee's
    playhouse-derived case design, and a kick-ass keyboard. Or a Sun Sparc.
    Or one of those industrial design looking IBM RS/6000s.

    In 2000, I ran a company off of a Sun Enterprise 250 - Purple, gray,
    big vents, a big door with a key... we replaced it with a bunch of
    white boxes running Linux. :(



    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Sep 23 06:46:58 2025
    On 20 Sep 2025 at 12:31p, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    I miss the days of Audacious Hardware Design. Give me a MIPS-powered
    Silicon Graphics box in some fever-dream color, Pee-Wee's
    playhouse-derived case design, and a kick-ass keyboard. Or a Sun Sparc.
    Or one of those industrial design looking IBM RS/6000s.

    No love for DEC? Their later Alpha boxes looked pretty slick.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to tenser on Tue Sep 23 07:30:04 2025
    tenser wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I miss the days of Audacious Hardware Design. Give me a MIPS-powered
    Silicon Graphics box in some fever-dream color, Pee-Wee's
    playhouse-derived case design, and a kick-ass keyboard. Or a Sun Sparc.
    Or one of those industrial design looking IBM RS/6000s.

    No love for DEC? Their later Alpha boxes looked pretty slick.

    A friend of mine couldn't bear to see a DEC Alpha being tossed out at
    work, so he brought it home. It ran NT 3.51 and IIS for way longer than
    it should have - but it would not die.

    It was sort of a peak-industrial design mid-tower from the early '90s.



    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From hyjinx@21:1/126 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Sep 24 22:34:16 2025
    In 2000, I ran a company off of a Sun Enterprise 250 - Purple, gray,
    big vents, a big door with a key... we replaced it with a bunch of
    white boxes running Linux. :(

    That wasn't the worst days of it.. I remember the days of the 'big iron' workstations and micro-servers turning into beige Linux. But at least the operating system running in all that beige was a fun time to be in though. Back in 2000-2010, Linux was such a vibrant community. People really cared, interesting things were happening every day, and people committed so much of their free time to open source goodness for the sake of it, not corporate greed. I feel that has all but vanished now.

    Now it's a sea of beige, and a sea of beige operating systems. Even Linux has ceded ownership largely to a few big corps when it comes down to it, excluding the kernel, for the most part anyway. But even that has parts coded by IBM, Microsoft, Google and others. Nothing is free any more. No more cathedral and the bazaar.

    Al


    hyjinx // Alistair Ross
    Author of 'Back to the BBS' Documentary: https://bit.ly/3tRINeL (YouTube) alsgeeklab.com

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: bbs.alsgeeklab.com:2323 (21:1/126)
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to hyjinx on Wed Sep 24 06:43:22 2025
    hyjinx wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Now it's a sea of beige, and a sea of beige operating systems.

    Beigey-black. I'm tempted to paint my black desktop case something
    garish. I did see a standard Dell done in an olive green with woodgrain
    inserts, I kinda liked that...




    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: realitycheckBBS.org -- information is power. (21:4/122)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Sep 25 08:00:33 2025
    On 23 Sep 2025 at 07:30a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    tenser wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    No love for DEC? Their later Alpha boxes looked pretty slick.

    A friend of mine couldn't bear to see a DEC Alpha being tossed out at work, so he brought it home. It ran NT 3.51 and IIS for way longer than
    it should have - but it would not die.

    Yeah. I've still got an Alpha down in the basement that runs VMS.
    I don't need this machine, but it's fun.

    A fan died on it a year or so ago; the machine shut down instantly
    with a thermal warning. Ok, so I got a new fan; low power, but enough
    air movement to keep things cool. I installed it and the machine shut
    down _again_. Oops; looks like they were measuring current drawn by
    the fan as a proxy for how well it was working: the system believed
    my much more efficient fan was broken (it was not).

    So I had to get a less efficient fan. :-D

    The SCSI disks in it are starting to die, though.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From hollowone@21:2/150 to hyjinx on Wed Sep 24 11:42:57 2025

    When computers started to become more about tools rather than objects of fun and tinkering. That's probably when I lost interest in the hardware.


    And that's where tinkering comes back. We live in times where it's relatively easy to create your own computer connecting PCB, native chips and fpga emulation.

    I don't have time for that so I tinker with such created by others or retro where bare metal is still not fully uncovered. But yeah, times when you can have your own custom cyber deck with your own hw and software wares is now!

    -h1

    ... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to hyjinx on Fri Sep 26 02:04:13 2025
    On 24 Sep 2025 at 10:34p, hyjinx pondered and said...

    Now it's a sea of beige, and a sea of beige operating systems. Even
    Linux has ceded ownership largely to a few big corps when it comes down
    to it, excluding the kernel, for the most part anyway. But even that has parts coded by IBM, Microsoft, Google and others. Nothing is free any more. No more cathedral and the bazaar.

    I think that's a bit of a simplification. IBM, MSFT, and Google
    contribute to Linux because it's in their strategic best interests
    to do so, but that doesn't mean that Linux is any less "free" than
    it was before.

    What _has_ changed is that the barrier to entry, and overall cost
    (in terms of time, energy, politics, etc, but not necessarily money)
    has increased dramatically. BigCo contributions to Linux seem to
    dominate so much because those companies have the resources to
    sponsor engineers shepherding their changes through to integration;
    but a lot of other folks do not. So the biggies can afford to do
    it, and passionate individuals do it just because, while a lot of
    smaller organizations cannot justify the expense.

    But even within the ranks of the big boys, there is discontent:
    for a working engineer, time and energy (and political capital) have
    a very direct relationship with money, so often it's easier to just
    float a patch in your local repo than upsteam a change. And that
    causes real problems: when I was on Google's kernel team, we had an
    _enormous_ patch set and it took a very long time to rebase onto an
    upstream release.

    Why not upstream all of that? A great question, with a few different
    answers. One is that some of it couldn't; some stuff had been done
    in collaboration with a vendor, under NDA, and Google was legally
    barred from sending that code upstream. Some was because, even
    though there was no significant intellectual property concerns, code
    might be so Google-specific that it didn't make sense to send upstream;
    much of that is historical baggage, but getting rid of it takes time.
    But probably the biggest reason was that it wasn't economically viable
    for a lot of stuff. Google might make a change that was a win, but
    for a specific, constrained use-case. It may be cool to upstream, but
    when it's sent someone looks at it and says, "yeah, this is neat, but
    it only works for n=1; you should generalize it for any n." Except
    that doing that generalization might be 10x the work of the current
    patch: the engineer can't justify the investment because it provides
    no additional value to Google, so it's easier to just float the patch.
    Of course, over time, that decision is more expensive than doing the
    work and getting the thing upstreamed, but we're talking about a 5-10
    year timeline here.

    Anyway, yeah, Linux is as free as ever, but the days of Torvalds
    taking any random code and integrating it are certainly over. The
    bar is much higher, and that cost can be borne by the Googles,
    IBMs, Amazons, Metas, and Facebooks of the world, but not so much
    by the smaller players, let alone individuals who are more
    interested in casual contribution.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From hyjinx@21:1/126 to tenser on Sat Sep 27 09:27:52 2025
    Why not upstream all of that? A great question, with a few different answers. One is that some of it couldn't; some stuff had been done
    in collaboration with a vendor, under NDA, and Google was legally
    barred from sending that code upstream. Some was because, even
    though there was no significant intellectual property concerns, code
    might be so Google-specific that it didn't make sense to send upstream; much of that is historical baggage, but getting rid of it takes time.
    But probably the biggest reason was that it wasn't economically viable
    for a lot of stuff. Google might make a change that was a win, but
    for a specific, constrained use-case. It may be cool to upstream, but when it's sent someone looks at it and says, "yeah, this is neat, but
    it only works for n=1; you should generalize it for any n." Except
    that doing that generalization might be 10x the work of the current
    patch: the engineer can't justify the investment because it provides
    no additional value to Google, so it's easier to just float the patch.
    Of course, over time, that decision is more expensive than doing the
    work and getting the thing upstreamed, but we're talking about a 5-10
    year timeline here.

    This is a really interesting insight. I bet more people would like to know the inner workings of contribution in the corporate fed open source world. If you'd ever consider wrapping this convo into dialogue that you'd be willing to share to a wider audience, I'd love to interview you for the YouTube channel. Let me know if you're interested.

    Cheers,
    Al


    hyjinx // Alistair Ross
    Author of 'Back to the BBS' Documentary: https://bit.ly/3tRINeL (YouTube) alsgeeklab.com

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: bbs.alsgeeklab.com:2323 (21:1/126)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to hyjinx on Sat Sep 27 11:55:21 2025
    On 27 Sep 2025 at 09:27a, hyjinx pondered and said...

    This is a really interesting insight. I bet more people would like to
    know the inner workings of contribution in the corporate fed open source world. If you'd ever consider wrapping this convo into dialogue that
    you'd be willing to share to a wider audience, I'd love to interview you for the YouTube channel. Let me know if you're interested.

    Heh, I don't know if you really want to interview me; I'm pretty
    boring. But I'd be happy to chat with you some time if you'd like
    to explore further.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From apam@21:3/197 to tenser on Sat Sep 27 04:01:28 2025
    Heh, I don't know if you really want to interview me; I'm pretty
    boring. But I'd be happy to chat with you some time if you'd like
    to explore further.

    Hehe, I disagree. You are definitley not boring. At least to the right
    target audience ;P

    Seriously though, you seem to have a wealth of knowledge and experience
    and it's an absolute privilege to be able to get your insights into
    things.

    I'd definitly watch an interview with you.

    Andrew


    --- envy/0.1-6dee535
    * Origin: Quinn - Random Things - bbs.quinnos.com:2323 (21:3/197)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to apam on Sun Sep 28 01:56:41 2025
    On 27 Sep 2025 at 04:01a, apam pondered and said...

    Heh, I don't know if you really want to interview me; I'm pretty boring. But I'd be happy to chat with you some time if you'd like
    to explore further.

    Hehe, I disagree. You are definitley not boring. At least to the right target audience ;P

    Seriously though, you seem to have a wealth of knowledge and experience and it's an absolute privilege to be able to get your insights into things.

    Oh wow, that's really kind of you to say. Thank you very much!

    I'd definitly watch an interview with you.

    I would hate to disappoint. People would see just how un-photogenic
    I am, though.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)